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hwd23 View Drop Down
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  Quote hwd23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Roto players
    Posted: 11 Apr 2013 at 9:02am
I am giving the format a go again after over ten years away. I never really enjoyed it in the past. I am having fun. Have had a decent start and believe the team is good enough not to embarrass itself. Here is the one question I have above all others. Why have the catagories not been adjusted over the years? For instance OBP would be a lot better than Ba IMHO. Slugging might be better than HR. Then you factor in walks, 2b's, and 3b's. The slugging I see the arguments against. The OBP I don't. I understand you can make the categories whatever you please but the standard is still BA. I hate to see my guy get on base twice and get nailed for it. An 0-2 does create a chance for a run but  shouldn't it ne worth something in itself? Bad when you are hoping for Saunders to heal fast but I am lol
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PennMan View Drop Down
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  Quote PennMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2013 at 10:54am
hwd23 - 1st thing is welcome back to Roto! Most important is glad you are having fun with it :-)
To answer your question about the categories from my observation and opinion I think it very understandable as to why BA is still the standard over OBP and that reason is that fans generally think of BA 1st. The Triple Crown is BA, HR,RBI's after all.

You may like OBP over BA but others may like BA far better. It's all preference and I can see the virtues of both and find neither better than the other for Rotisserie Leagues. BA is traditional, more simple to follow as it is published in every paper and on every score board so the typical Roto player all those things make it the popular choice at this time.
If the Triple Crown categories change then that would probably have some sway with Roto Players.


There are enough leagues now that use OBP and have more than 5x5 categories which was a leap from the original 4x4 formats so hopefully you will find a league or create one that fits what you like best!

My 2 cents :-)
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LABLUE View Drop Down
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  Quote LABLUE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2013 at 11:33am
obp also rewards a player for reaching on an error, grounding into a DP, and a fielders choice which are all negatives but help obp.
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lvtdude View Drop Down
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  Quote lvtdude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2013 at 9:13pm
I really like 6x6 leagues that use OPS and holds in addition to the standard 5x5 categories. I'll never get rid of batting average, because I grew up rooting for a high batting average. I know George Brett hit .390. I know Ted Williams hit .406. I know that Ty Cobb's career average was .366. I don't even have to look up those numbers. I have benchmarks to judge others by, and I'm really comfortable with them.

Yes, I know a .400 OBP is great, but I don't know a historical benchmark to equate it with. I know a .200 average is the Mendoza line, but what is the equivalent OBP? I don't know, and I don't really care.

You can add things to make the scoring system better, but don't change it on me.

Imagine if NFL guys stopped reporting the distance on a punt, and would only give you the hang time, or the net yardage. Great things to know, but I want to hear how far the ball went. I just do.

I understand the people that value OBP over average. I may even agree that it is a better stat. However, there is something to be said for upholding tradition.
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msarvi View Drop Down
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  Quote msarvi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2013 at 5:18am
I'm pretty sure that OBP doesn't include those Blue. OBP = (Hits + Walks + Hit by Pitch) / (At Bats + Walks + Hit by Pitch + Sacrifice Flies)

I get that HRs and Avg are traditional. I also get that it doesn't matter what the categories are because you just adjust your valuation of players accordingly. However, I'm in favor of taking luck out of the equation as much as possible. The great thing about Roto vs Head to head is that over the course of a long season, luck is diminished. Having said that, I'd like to see OBP replace Avg to reward the skill of drawing walks. I'd also like to see HRs replaced by Total Bases (TB). I wouldn't replace HRs with SLG% because that is a ratio replacing a counting stat. I'd rather see TB as it rewards the kind of hit you get which Avg and OBP doesn't. Home Runs are over counted in my opinion. They get you an RBI, a Run, a HR (obviously) and count towards whatever ratio stat you use. With TB you would get the extra count toward bases with HRs (4), but not in disproportion to doubles and triples. It also balances the all or nothing types with guys that get a lot of hits. Combined with OBP it recognizes that a single is better than a walk, double better than a single, etc.

Lastly, I'd replace Wins with Quality Starts (QS). Wins involve a lot of luck. Look at Hamels and Cliff Lee last year. it is amazing how similar the stats are except for wins. People argue that QS is no good because you don't have to pitch well to get one, but you don't have to pitch well to get a W either. The ratio stats (ERA & WHIP) take care of discounting "bad" QS just like they discount "bad" Ws and  "bad" Saves.

I wonder what stats would be "traditional" if Bill James was born 100 years earlier.


Edited by msarvi - 12 Apr 2013 at 5:59am
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PennMan View Drop Down
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  Quote PennMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2013 at 11:33am
msarvi- you are really wanting or liking a customized Non Standard version of the rules but I don't see any of the arguments anyone has made as a reason to change the standard.

Batting Average is one of the most traditional and best known stats and as I mentioned it is a part of the Triple Crown Stats. Based on that alone I believe it is here to stay but with todays sites you can customize the categories to your liking which is great.

*How to Calculate On-Base Percentage

On-base percentage (also known as on-base average) is the measure of the number of times a player gets on base via hit, walk, or hit by pitch, expressed as a percentage of his total number of plate appearances.

What’s a plate appearance? Unlike an “at bat,” a plate appearance is counted every time a player comes to bat regardless of the outcome of that time at the plate. The statistic known as “at bats” counts only the times a player gets a hit or makes an out, while “plate appearances” count walks, sacrifices, hit by pitch, and so on.


Here’s how you calculate an on-base percentage:


(Hits + Walks + Hit by Pitch) / (At Bats + Walks + Hit by Pitch + Sacrifice Flies)

** I suppose getting hit by a pitch is now a skill

Edited by PennMan - 12 Apr 2013 at 11:35am
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msarvi View Drop Down
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  Quote msarvi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2013 at 11:46am
Like I said at first, I get the reasons not to change. I'm saying to improve the game you can, with my changes, take out some of the duplication and luck in the game and account for things like walks, doubles and triples that are not accounted for now. The game as it is is fine but the initial post was asking about improving it or looking at different stats. Just because AVG is traditional or more recognized, doesn't make it better. Remember, WHIP and Runs were not part of the original 4x4 format that used to be the standard. Those were added and made the game arguably better. BTW Hit by pitch happens so infrequently and would be so diluted in OBP as to have a minimal effect. But yes, it is a skill.....Ron Hunt made a career out of it. LOL


Edited by msarvi - 12 Apr 2013 at 11:50am
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lvtdude View Drop Down
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  Quote lvtdude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2013 at 1:21pm
You said the correct answer right there....WHIP and Runs were ADDED to the 4x4 standard. They didn't replace anything.

I'm all for adding categories to enhance my game. I'm dead set against taking out anything, even saves...which I despise.

To mitigate the problems with the saves category, I like adding holds. Those Kenley Jansens and David Robertson you would normally stash on your bench in a 5x5 league become viable and sometimes great additions to your team.

As for wins, I completely understand how lucky the stat is. However, I don't like the quality start category. I have the argument you've heard before, there's nothing "quality" about a 4.50 ERA. You could theoretically lead the league in QS, but finish last in ERA. Improve the QS stat to 6 innings and 2 runs or 7 innings and 3 runs, and maybe I change my tune.

That said, I have made the argument for wins before, on this website.

Fantasy baseball is supposed to be fun. Rooting for your pitcher to get a win is fun. Hoping he gets through the 5th inning when he's laboring is fun. Hoping the reliever doesn't blow his win after he is removed is fun. Hoping his team scores the run(s) to regain the lead after your starter is replaced with a pinch hitter is fun.

You don't get all that with the QS. If you're not about the fun of the game, I [disagree with] you. Certain elements of baseball need to be retained in fantasy baseball.

*changed pity to disagree. It was a poor choice of words, a little because it could be seen as offensive, but especially since it means I care more than I really do.


Edited by lvtdude - 12 Apr 2013 at 7:13pm
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msarvi View Drop Down
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  Quote msarvi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2013 at 2:24pm
Owning Cliff Lee was not fun. I disagree that a pitcher could lead in QS but be last in ERA. My point is that a pitcher that gets QS but has a high ERA, will be valued correctly because you have to look at the ratios as well as counting stats. The 4.50 ERA isa BS arguement. That is the worst case and studies show the ERA of the average QS is much lower. Don't worry yourself with having pity on what I root for.
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lvtdude View Drop Down
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  Quote lvtdude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2013 at 4:17pm
I said "theoretically."
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lvtdude View Drop Down
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  Quote lvtdude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2013 at 4:22pm
"I disagree that a pitcher could lead in QS but be last in ERA."

That's not what I meant, when I said YOU could lead the league in QS but be last in ERA. I wasn't saying a pitcher could do it. I meant your fantasy staff could. In a fantasy league, you could THEORETICALLY lead your league in one category and lose the other. It would be about as rare as Cliff Lee having a good season despite winning only 6 games, but it could happen.
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msarvi View Drop Down
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  Quote msarvi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2013 at 5:29pm
Ahh...sure. Theoretically a 4.50 ERA and x number of QS. Fujikawa got a win today with a 27.00 ERA, so
in theory.....
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lvtdude View Drop Down
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  Quote lvtdude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2013 at 6:44pm
If you go to the baseball reference leader board page, you can view the pitching leaders in 32 distinct categories. I can find a leader board for any roto category I can think of, but quality starts is not one of them. I don't know exactly what that says about the statistic, but it must not be all that important to those that keep track of such things.
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PennMan View Drop Down
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  Quote PennMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2013 at 6:54pm
You can find or make up a statistic for anything and create all kinds of sub categories if you are that obsessed.

I say find something you like and don't waste your time knocking what the majority likes or doesn't like if it is different from your viewpoint.

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msarvi View Drop Down
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  Quote msarvi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2013 at 9:31pm
1. I didn't make up this stat. Wins are a made up stat. All stats are made up stats.
2. I never said I didn't like the way it is now. I just was making a argument that a particular stat is a better judge of a pitcher's worth than another stat was. If we are using roto stats to measure a player's worth in the real game within the context of creating a game that we as fantasy players can compete in, then I say use the better stat. I'm not stomping my feet over this and saying it sucks the way it is, I'm just answering a post with my opinion and you and lvtdude have countered. I'm not knocking your viewpoint. I'm saying you haven't given a good reason why wins are better. Your (you and Lvtdude's) viewpoint is that Ws are more accepted, popular, show up in a reference and somehow are better to root for when watchng a game. The 4.50 ERA thing isn't valid. These don't explain how Wins reflect a player's worth better than QS.
3. My last word on this: Pretend that when Roto first started and that QS was the standard and not Wins. Try to argue that Wins make it a better game. Breakdown today's Cubs and Nats games first using QS as a stat and then using Wins. What pitchers are rewarded in each scenario?

Chow


Edited by msarvi - 12 Apr 2013 at 9:33pm
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LABLUE View Drop Down
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  Quote LABLUE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2013 at 9:47pm
Id only use QS if I could set up what I think a QS is. 6 IP and 3 er's is not quality.
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msarvi View Drop Down
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  Quote msarvi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2013 at 9:48pm
Originally posted by lvtdude

If you go to the baseball reference leader board page, you can view the pitching leaders in 32 distinct categories. I can find a leader board for any roto category I can think of, but quality starts is not one of them. I don't know exactly what that says about the statistic, but it must not be all that important to those that keep track of such things.


Yes it is. http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/2012-starter-pitching.shtml#players_starter_pitching::19

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msarvi View Drop Down
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  Quote msarvi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2013 at 9:50pm
Originally posted by LABLUE

Id only use QS if I could set up what I think a QS is. 6 IP and 3 er's is not quality.

Then call it something else. A 27.00 ERA Win is not "quality" either.

BTW I believe a study (http://207.56.97.150/articles/qstart.htm) was done that showed the average QS from 1984 to 1991 was achieved with a 1.91 ERA. I don't know what the average Win ERA is. But you can't look at the stat as it stands alone. It has WHIP, ERA and Ks as part of the total value of the pitcher. So you don't look at it as just Wins vs QS, Its Wins plus Ks plus ERA plus WHIP vs QS plus Ks plus ERA plus WHIP.


Edited by msarvi - 12 Apr 2013 at 10:08pm
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lvtdude View Drop Down
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  Quote lvtdude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2013 at 10:38pm
Originally posted by msarvi

Originally posted by lvtdude

If you go to the baseball reference leader board page, you can view the pitching leaders in 32 distinct categories. I can find a leader board for any roto category I can think of, but quality starts is not one of them. I don't know exactly what that says about the statistic, but it must not be all that important to those that keep track of such things.


Yes it is. http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/2012-starter-pitching.shtml#players_starter_pitching::19



Yes, baseball reference has every stat. I said it isn't on their leader board page, and it isn't THERE. You're very good at selective reading. Click the LEADERS tab on BR. It isn't THERE.
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LABLUE View Drop Down
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  Quote LABLUE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2013 at 2:35am
"Then call it something else. A 27.00 ERA Win is not "quality" either"



I will call it the garbage stat then.

A win is not suppose to be quality so it does not matter what the era is. But trying to use a stat that is suppose to be quality but is not really quality stinks. Make the stat quality then call it that. 4.50 era is not quality so dont want a stat rewarding that junk when that is what the cat is for.

It would be like using k/9 as a cat yet somehow having guys that get 2.5 k/9 be good for the cat. Does not make sense. Make a QS 7 IP with 1-2 runs max be quality then I would be nto adding it. But still never take away wins anyways. Just add QS.

Edited by LABLUE - 13 Apr 2013 at 3:51am
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